Why I'm not using MM5 yet

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DJSamhein
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:43 am

Why I'm not using MM5 yet

Post by DJSamhein »

So, I tried MM5 a bit after launch and decided to keep using MM4. There were many reasons for it.
I tried MM5 now and thought I'd do a breakdown of the reasons this is still the case, so I can get some feedback on if things are going to change or alternatives to what I'm doing/complaining about.
By far my biggest issue is with adding new files to the library. I'll get to those in the end and start listing the smaller issues. Mostly these are small issues that don't really affect my decision on MM4 vs MM5, but they do detract from the overall MM5 experience.


Installing (got the latest, as of this date, test build, non-debug):
1- After installing MM5 and auto-importing the stuff from MM4, a bunch of nodes which I have explicitly disabled in MM4 are active in MM5, like the "Web" node. Small enough issue that's quickly fixed and, to be fair, every new install in MM4 would also turn it back on. But it would be nice if I could keep it disabled.

2- Global hotkeys aren't imported. I have to set them up again. Once more, small issue quickly fixed but would be nice not to have to worry about it.

3- Other small options aren't imported as well. I noticed it on "Default 'Play Now' action", playlist selection on auto-DJ (it defaulted to entire library) as well as a few other settings. Same as before, small issue, would be nice to have :P

4- It didn't import the current list of songs from MM4 from Now Playing.
Overall, not much issue with installing, just some small things which would have been nice.


Usage experience:

5- Tried to make the layout similar to what I had in MM4, failed. Basically, I was trying to have the media tree and album art/preview on the left sidebar, which I succeeded in doing. But I wanted to see the current Now Playing list. Instead, I have a big album art preview (cropped) and the album art/preview on the left. Which is redundant.
Most I could do was to add the playing list to the right side, which is not what I want. I need to see the whole list, with a bunch of selected fields, like on MM4. And I found no way to do this. I can actually configure the right sidebar to do what I want, but I'll still have most of the screen occupied by the redundant middle panel, which I can't get rid of. I can't even stretch this sidebar to use most of the screen. I changed skins and it allowed me to stretch the sidebar, but still can't get rid of the other one.

6- Node travelling doesn't actually work as you expect it to. I expand the artist node and I type the band name, but instead of navigating to the band node, like MM4 used to do (and you expect windows navigation to do), it instead inserts the typed characters on search and you then have to double click the artist node to have it actually selected. This is a small issue and I could probably get used to it, also I'm sure it's more of a personal preference, but I thought I should note it. Maybe add a setting for what behaviour one should use?

7-Track selection: I had already noticed this last time I tried MM5 and it remains the same. Sometimes I want to find an artist and play the songs marked with 5*. This was easy to do in MM4 thanks to column browser (although column browser will sometimes disable itself randomly for some reason). The way it is now, I select an artist and have no way to easily filter results I want, like I did with MM4. All I can filter is which albums I want and then I have to manually select files. This is a hassle for large collections. I just want to mostly select an artist and be able to filter their songs by either rating or genre, mostly the first one.

8-Track selection 2: Giving a real example- I have the remastered editions of the first Marillion albums. I want to select a few among the first 3-4 but play only the first disc. I select those albums from the album list so I can then filter the ones I want but the track list isn't updated. I still have the whole discography selected on the track list. Or I select one album, same thing happens. With just one album I can double click it and it will show me the tracks for it (travels to album node, even though it doesn't expand the albums node itself), but that doesn't work for multiple albums.

9- Multiple tracks selection. If I drag from an empty space below the list to select however many tracks I want, it won't work. Instead I have to start dragging on the file itself, being careful not to hit any text, otherwise it behaves differently. Small issue, could get used to it, but would be nice if it worked like expected, even though MM5 is web based not windows based.

10- The library only has an artist node. I have many compilations (album artist is Various and Artist is whoever plays the track) so I tend to navigate album artist a lot more than artist. In fact, the latter one is quite rare.

11- Player only allows showing remaining time. I'd like to have the option to have remaining time/full length, like I had on MM4.

12- This also happens in MM4, and it really is a small issue, but I use auto-DJ and the playlist always takes a few seconds to resolve, but while it's resolving, many times the album art in preview won't show. I assume this has to do with operations order, but it would be nice if it would load the album art/track details before attempting to add the next file.

So far, the only issue that would stop me from using MM5 is the main panel issue. If I could get rid of the preview and place the playing list there, it would be all good. I know I did this last I checked MM5 (about 2 years or so ago), so maybe it's a temp thing/bug?
I actually like MM5 in general. It needs some customization so I find it aesthetically more pleasing, but the options are there, I just have to fiddle with them. And it has some nice addtions which I find superior to MM4.

That being said, on to the main reasons I haven't switched to MM5 yet - adding new files to the library. For this I'll be comparing my experience with MM4 vs MM5:

13- First thing I do is use the "My Computer" node to travel to the temp folder where I keep my music. I then select all files and clear out the fields I don't want. This is done easily on MM4, as it has the "All" sub-node. I have no way of doing this on MM5. I can't select all tracks on subfolders.

14- After that, I use the "Case And Leading Zero Fixer 1.4.2" addon. This capitalizes all titles/albums and changes stuff like disc# or track# from "1" to "01". I have tried the case checker you provided and it doesn't capitalize all words, instead trying to change "the", "a", etc to small case, even if it is capitalized already, nor does it fix leading zeros. I can see the add-on on "Manage Addons" but I can't configure it. And I don't think there is an MM5 version of the MM4 addon either.

The next step is using the "Clear Field" addon to remove the lyrics, because MM4 doesn't have a way to clear them in a batch. MM5 does, so that's an improvement.

15- Next is comparing tags with discogs, using "Discogs Tagger" addon. There is nothing close to it on MM5. The autotag uses musicbrainz, which is much less accurate. There are lots of options missing, compared to the addon, like selecting which tags you actually want to fix. If I don't want the tagger to change the artist tag but just change the album/date, I can, but not so with MM5 tagger. In fact, the MM5 tagger is so underwhelming compared to the addon that it really isn't an option. Can't even select which release you want to use. crap_inhuman already said he won't be porting to MM5, so I don't think this point will ever satisfy me enough to make me jump to MM5.

Anyway, once tagging is complete, I once again select all files and then analyse their volume. This once again falls under the #12 issue.

At this point, I move the fixed folders into the library, where MM will auto-organize them. I haven't tried it yet on MM5 but I have no reason to expect any issues there.
Then I check a few playlists I created just for library integrity checking (like tracks using ´ instead of '), fill in a few tags like genre based on my library.

16- Last thing I do is use the "Tagging inconsistencies" addon. This looks up for a lot of potencial library issues, mostly related to mistagging files. Stuff like files having the same disc and track# (usually because I forgot to change the disc# of the second disc), multiple album art or art not marked as Cover, inconsistencies with genres (like having "Indie; Rock" tracks on library and then adding one with "Rock; Indie"), inconsistencies with names (like having an artist "MONO" and adding an artist "Mono", etc. This is hugely helpful and I see nothing of the sort in MM5, nor does it seem like this will be ported to MM5 either.

I then usually clean up the library, which MM5 should also do without issues.

Small improvements I did find with MM5:
a- Adding artist that have a "/" in the name actually works. In MM4, even though it's configured to only use ";" as multi artist separator, if I add a band like "De/Vision" it will always add it as multi artist. I always have to change artist tags again after adding to the library. MM5 added the tags correctly with no issues.
b- When I delete an album, it actually deletes the folder if it's then empty. Not a big issue, but a nice touch.


All in all, assuming I could fix the whole playing thing with the main panel, I like MM5. I would switch to it were it not for the huge problems with tagging. The main reason I've used MM all these years was because MM made managing my huge (300k songs) library easy. And the addons used definitely speeded up the process of cleaning/adding new stuff. But I don't see an alternative in MM5.
To use MM5 I would have to switch to MM4 to clean/add tracks and then switch back to MM5 for normal usage, which is too much of an hassle, honestly. Not to mention that, occasionally, I spot an error on a playing file and have to fix it, oftenly having to use Discogs Tagger for it.

Anyway, I would like to know your opinion on my... well, opinions :P
And if there is anything being considered as an alternative, expected time for said alternative or if that alternative already exists.
As I said, I do like MM5 and would like to upgrade. It's just these issues (mostly just the tagging ones) that are preventing me from doing so.
Lowlander
Posts: 56646
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 5:53 pm
Location: MediaMonkey 5

Re: Why I'm not using MM5 yet

Post by Lowlander »

5) Set the Playing node to the List View instead.

6) this works if the Media Tree is the active element and scroll to match typing is enabled.

7) Column browser is available as Column filter in MediaMonkey 5.

8 ) Please provide more details as to what Media Tree node is selected, what View you're using and how exactly you're attempting to filter the Filelisting.

9) Which Build (Help > About) and what View?

10) Album Artist can be enabled.

13) There is the Folders node and you can enable recursive display.
DJSamhein
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:43 am

Re: Why I'm not using MM5 yet

Post by DJSamhein »

5 and 6- Nice, I knew there was a way to fix this.

7- Not quite the same funcionality as column browser. It was simpler to have the column browser list all albums, ratings, genres, etc, in separate columns which you could filter. With the filter I'll have to manually create a search every time. Although some would be used repeatedly, filtering albums that way wouldn't be as easy
8- I am using the Entire Library->Album Artists node, default view, the one that looks up the band info and shows all album art, which is a nice feature, btw.

9- It was the latest one yesterday: 5.0.4.2690

10- Yes, I actually found that out while writing the post. Not sure why that point remained. Sorry about that.

Anyway, in terms of everyday usage, I guess only the points 7-8 would have an impact on my file selection, making it a less pleasant experience. And I'm sure there's some option or feature I haven't seen yet that will improve it.

My main issue with MM5 isn't the playing experience though. It's the tagging one. I've stayed with MM all these years because I think that your library and tag management are superior to most options out there. Since I have a very large colection, constantly add new stuff and being a former club DJ (the kind that doesn't create music, just plays stuff others made for the dance floor :P), MM has been invaluable over the years.

And yes, I know that my main experience in MM4 comes from add-ons, not the software itself, but that is also part of the package. Right now, with MM4, I have a relatively simple and straight forward way to add things that are compliant to the way I want my library to be. With a library this large you need a very good organization and I strive to keep it that way. MM4 made it easier.

Currently, I see no way where MM5 is even close to a simple experience to keep my library clean. And yes, I could use MM4 to add stuff and MM5 to play it, but that's just a hassle and sounds a little silly, really :P
Most of the crucial addons aren't likely to be ported to MM5, so I'd just like to know your opinion on this matter:
Are you considering implementing/improving any of this stuff?
Maybe reach out to the addon creators and work with them to be able to provide the same experience in MM5?

Basically, do you think there will be an alternative anytime soon to improve the tagging/library management experience as it stands on MM5?
Lowlander
Posts: 56646
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Location: MediaMonkey 5

Re: Why I'm not using MM5 yet

Post by Lowlander »

7) It's not Filtering, but the Column filter, which is the exact same thing as the Column Browser in MediaMonkey 4.

8 ) List (by Album) View? If so, are you viewing it in collapsed or expanded mode?
DJSamhein
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:43 am

Re: Why I'm not using MM5 yet

Post by DJSamhein »

I see. I was in the default browser view. If I switch to List (By Album) it has a column filter and everything works as expected.

Is it possible to have this sort of behavior in browser view? Seeing the column filter? Maybe below the albums, where the track list starts? I did enjoy this view and feel it's better than List (By Album)
Lowlander
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Location: MediaMonkey 5

Re: Why I'm not using MM5 yet

Post by Lowlander »

No, but you can enable the Info Panel from Browser View in other views.
Barry4679
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Re: Why I'm not using MM5 yet

Post by Barry4679 »

DJSamhein wrote: Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:54 pm I see. I was in the default browser view. If I switch to List (By Album) it has a column filter and everything works as expected.
Is it possible to have this sort of behavior in browser view? Seeing the column filter? Maybe below the albums, where the track list starts? I did enjoy this view and feel it's better than List (By Album)
So you are in a view like this? ie. Browser View for an Artist or Composer?

The MM5 way of doing what I think you want is this:
  • if you have the cursor focus in the main panel, and nothing is selected (ie. no individual tag is highlited), if you type anything this will open a search control in the toolbar, and filter the main panel accordingly
  • so to find just tracks rated 3 you would type rating: 3
  • or to find tracks rated 4 or more, you would type rating: 4..
  • if you hover the mouse while focus is in this serach control, you will see a tooltip with search syntax hints
  • or press F1 key while focus in the search panel, to get taken to the relevant help information
Want a dark skin for MM5? This is the one that works best for me .. elegant, compact & clear.
DJSamhein
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:43 am

Re: Why I'm not using MM5 yet

Post by DJSamhein »

Yes, but I tried the options and I feel more comfortable with the List by album with the column browser. It's more practical for me. But that is just a personal preference anyway.

With the clarifications made in this post, I have no more issues with the playing/browsing experience. My only issue is with tagging/organizing the library. So far, MM4 is a much superior experience, due to very good addons, and one I can't replace even remotely with MM5. And the lack of response in this topic regarding this makes me feel that I'll have to wait a few more years until someone decides to make these addons for MM5. It doesn't seem like MM is planning on doing much to fix this.
Then again, I already have a lifetime license, so I'm stuck with MM anyway, whether they improve this or not.

Seems like I'll stick with MM4 for the time being.
Barry4679
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Re: Why I'm not using MM5 yet

Post by Barry4679 »

The Column Filter is my goto facility in MM5.
I can see the value of enabling it for Browser Views.
I created this to see if this request may be promoted. The idea may already be being tracked, in which case issue will be merged into some other issue.

Which of your original 15 points are still issues for you? ie. after reviewing LowLander's tips and your own further investigations?
I am late to this thread, and would like to look into your other issues.
Want a dark skin for MM5? This is the one that works best for me .. elegant, compact & clear.
DJSamhein
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:43 am

Re: Why I'm not using MM5 yet

Post by DJSamhein »

It was actually 16 points. My issue is basically all 4 of the tagging issues: 13 to 16

13 is the least problematic. It would be annoying to have to clear tags individually on 20+ folders, as is often the case, but they're not as important as the other 3.

Discogs tagger, especially, is such a huge tool, with a huge number of functionalities that MM5 doesn't even have, even disregarding the use of discogs vs musicbrainz.
Tagging inconsistencies is also something that has tremendous value and allows me to detect easily duplicates, albums with missing tracks, when I forget to use disc 2 for the second CD, etc
And the Case Checker is much superior to the Case Checker that comes with MM5. Especially because I don't even have options on MM5. I can't capitalize everything, I can't fix leading zero, can't add exceptions (like roman numerals, etc)

So far, the tagging experience on MM5 has been that I just can't do it. Not without spending 10x more time than with MM4 and being much more open to library inconsistency. And after a couple years it's starting to look like it's not a priority for MM5.

EDIT: I just noticed that Lowlander addressed issue 13 (though he mislabeled it 15) saying to use the Folders node. That is the one I use. I keep forgetting the views, so I went back and checked all options, but I still don't see all tracks recursively. Most that happens is that I can see the folders on top, but if I select them, I still don't see the track list. And I can't find any option to enable the "All" sub-node or similar option.
Lowlander
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Re: Why I'm not using MM5 yet

Post by Lowlander »

13) Did you try
To enable the showing of media files for all sub-folders use View > Main panel view > Display folder content recursively from the Main Menu.
There is no All nodes cluttering the Media Tree like MediaMonkey 4, instead this toggles to show all or just the selected folder contents.
DJSamhein
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:43 am

Re: Why I'm not using MM5 yet

Post by DJSamhein »

Ah, I see. I didn't use that option. I used the view button at the top right. As far as I can see, the only difference between the view menu and the menu that pops up on the top right is only the recursive folders option, so maybe add that there as well?

Anyway, that does take care of that issue.
Barry4679
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Re: Why I'm not using MM5 yet

Post by Barry4679 »

DJSamhein wrote: Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:00 pm As far as I can see, the only difference between the view menu and the menu that pops up on the top right is only the recursive folders option, so maybe add that there as well?
It's there. At the bottom of View>MainPanelView submenu.
You can assign a hotkey to it. Probably should have one by default.
Want a dark skin for MM5? This is the one that works best for me .. elegant, compact & clear.
DJSamhein
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:43 am

Re: Why I'm not using MM5 yet

Post by DJSamhein »

Hm, no. I'm in the folders collection, I select a folder. The menu from View>Main Panel then has the Views, View Elements, and customize shows Manage Views and then the option to toggle subfolders or not. But if I click on the views button in the toolbar, in the top right, I get the exact same options but without the toggle option. The last one is Manage Views.
DJSamhein
Posts: 155
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:43 am

Re: Why I'm not using MM5 yet

Post by DJSamhein »

Oh, also one thing I forgot about, which I mentioned in point 11. It's a small thing, not that important, but I do like to keep the remaining time/full length of the track in the player. MM4 allowed for this (you could click to scroll the 3 options) but either MM5 doesn't allow it or I can't find the option.
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